[erikchendo]

Hello, with the Sonic Mania Plus chegeda, the characters Ray and Mighty were included.
in addition, a new ranking has been included.
The Encore ranking
Please upgrade the competition to include the encore and the characters Ray and Mighty

[hfactor66]

I’d be open to a discussion about getting that added as well as revamping the overall Mania competition, because Time Attack is no longer viable to compete in the Score Attack category due to the changes made to it. Not only does it not count down your score like it normally does, but it only shows your time and ranking on the results screen. This has a major effect on the SA category for this game, because before, bosses could be skipped by playing in Time Attack, and that played a major role in all of my current top ranked score attacks, utilizing that extra time not spent on the boss to point press off of more badniks. With the current state of the game, it’s no longer possible to do this anymore, at least if your game is up to date, which mine is.

[Zurggriff]

Good to see someone else interested in changes to the Sonic Mania charts. The more competitors involved should help with picking out a good solution. This previously came up in this topic http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=6394.msg64572#msg64572 and only two people had input about these changes to the game.

New charts for the new levels and characters are not affected by the presence of older versions, really the only thing holding those up, now that this discussion is back, is where those charts should go, depending on the changes we make to Sonic Mania competition.

To recap, the big problems are:

• Older versions are hard to access. v1.03 requires downgrading through Steam Console and v.1.00 requires a console already with the game and not updated.
• A few levels had routes blocked or glitches removed. There are approximately 6 Times stats that use v1.00 exclusive routes and 11 exclusive to v1.03 with video. I did not get data for Rings and Scores.
• Sticking to slopes when jumping from a roll as Sonic and Knuckles was removed. A lot of stats with video make use of this. Many stats without video may have also used this.
• Score Bonuses have been removed from Time Attack. For the most part, this affects top scores in Press Garden 1, Stardust Speedway 2, and Titanic Monarch 2, but could affect other stats, with or without video.

[Vicklaw]

As far as rings are concerned, some stats can only be done on certain versions.

- Green Hill act 1 had a glitch in version 1.00 where you could access to Knuckles' section as Sonic and Tails to get more rings + a giant ring too.
- Rings for Studiopolis act 2 are done better on 1.03 and before due to the need to enter a blue spheres level to cancel the super form. In next versions the blue shperes are replaced by the pinball bonus stage once you get all the golden medals.
- Rings for Hydrocity act 2 are done by starting with a lighting shield which can only be obtained in the new bonus stage that came with 1.04 and encore mode as there's no lighting shield in act 1.
- Lava Reef act 1 has a new transition in 1.04 that gives 6 rings if you start from Oil Ocean act 2 that cannot be done on previous versions.
- Titanic Monarch act 2 has a patch of rings with twice the value it should have (in 1.03, like the rings in Metropolis zone 2 in Sonic 2) that has been fixed in the next versions.

Any score done involving those rings is affected as well.

I use both 1.03 and Plus when submitting my stats but I don't have a console with 1.00

[hfactor66]

As far as rings are concerned, some stats can only be done on certain versions.

- Green Hill act 1 had a glitch in version 1.00 where you could access to Knuckles' section as Sonic and Tails to get more rings + a giant ring too.
- Rings for Studiopolis act 2 are done better on 1.03 and before due to the need to enter a blue spheres level to cancel the super form. In next versions the blue shperes are replaced by the pinball bonus stage once you get all the golden medals.
- Rings for Hydrocity act 2 are done by starting with a lighting shield which can only be obtained in the new bonus stage that came with 1.04 and encore mode as there's no lighting shield in act 1.
- Lava Reef act 1 has a new transition in 1.04 that gives 6 rings if you start from Oil Ocean act 2 that cannot be done on previous versions.
- Titanic Monarch act 2 has a patch of rings with twice the value it should have (in 1.03, like the rings in Metropolis zone 2 in Sonic 2) that has been fixed in the next versions.

Any score done involving those rings is affected as well.

I use both 1.03 and Plus when submitting my stats but I don't have a console with 1.00

Interestingly enough, there was also a ring removed from the standard GHZ 1 in 1.04, cuz I was only able to get 592 with Mighty and Ray when I revisited these levels again with them instead of 593.

[Zurggriff]

Just in case this is causing confusion, the next and newest version of Sonic Mania on Steam is v1.05, both the base game and Sonic Mania Plus DLC. I do not know about the console versions but it should not make a difference.

To make the charts competitive for the newest version, should we remove all stats that make use of version specific game play or move them to separate charts (if this is even possible)? A lot of stats would be removed and this could be a problem to enforce for stats without proof but making all of the charts compatible with the newest version would eliminate the problem of obtaining an older version to be competitive... unless the game is overhauled again. I want to think this is rare.

I do not know how difficult it is for a new player to get v1.03 on Steam but v1.00 is nearly impossible to come across.

Also, the number of runs I posted about in my last post may be slightly lower than actual as that data is a little old but it also does not account for runs that stick to slopes when jumping, which would increase that number significantly.

[Vicklaw]

My opinions are the following :

We can keep the current chart and add a new one exclusively for the last versions (which should include encore, Mighty and Ray too). This is already done with Sonic CD as the original and the 2011 versions are distinct. This can also eliminate the doubt for stats without proof : Were they done without the slope bug and such ? By submitting stats on a new chart that specifically requires the newest versions, people can keep their old stats (and won't be disappointed as they won't be deleted) and we can be sure the new stats won't have the bugs from the previous versions.

Warnings can be written on both charts (like it is written for the original Sonic CD) to let players know in which chart they should submit their stats. It can be nice to explain a way to check the version they are using.

Current stats done with a video proof that didn't use an old version specific move (jump on slopes and such) can be ported to the new chart on levels that were unchanged.
Maybe hold a log of fixes or such between versions (that can be enriched over time by what the players find and have found in the past) for possible stats (or simply not do it if it's too complicated to trust)

Stats done with the new version may (?) still be added to the older chart, excluding specific cases (stardust speedway act 2 boss and shield carried in act 2 from act 1 that are not available without the pinball bonus stage). Should a video proof be necessary in that case ?

Maybe someone can host a link somewhere on the site to download V1.03 (and maybe V1.00 too ?) so everyone can access it easily but I think that's illegal.

What do you think ?

[Zurggriff]

I would make the wild guess that hosting a download for those versions would not be legal. The consoles may require hacking to get v1.00 or v1.03 anyway, if at all possible and I think steam requires the user to have purchased the game. I still do not know that downgrading works for users that purchased the game after the v1.05 update.

If the charts were split between old versions and new versions, should the old charts have any weight toward sitewide points? The same sort of idea as the freestyle charts in various games. This still leaves a few levels where a specific version, v1.00, would dominate the chart which would need an additional split. I think they should not count if competing on those charts ends up only accessible to players that already have those versions.

This brings me to my next thought of: is it worth making a mess of the charts to host competition in versions that may not get activity with new version charts up? I just think years from now, most people that have the game would only have the current version. This is the biggest conflict I have with complicating the charts by keeping old stats up versus removing stats to have a clean set of charts that is easy to access. The turnout for feedback has been low, which makes picking a solution more difficult.

[Vicklaw]

I didn't consider a freestyle option like it exists for some other games which is actually a good idea for that case if wanting to keep old stats.
You are also right about the fact that people update their games when they can + new people buying the game now will probably only have the last version as well which leads to only a very few players keeping the previous versions. I suppose that number of players being far too low to be worth splitting the charts. The chart for the old versions may never have entries on it.


If keeping only a single chart, I'm still clueless about what to do with the old stats. Some obvious ones won't have their places anymore on it, but that's not the case for all of them.

[Vicklaw]

I'm happy to see the new entries for the chart, I will submit my old Encore videos.

Question : Is it required to finish the levels in encore mode in under 10 minutes ? Because I don't see any way to activate a time limit in encore. (I can do it in Mania but not in Encore). This isn't listed in the rules. Same question for the time limit in Mania mode with the new versions ?
If the time is not an issue I may submit even more Ring Attacks.

Also a random question I couldn't find an answer yet. In all Sonic games with Special Stage charts that involve Rings and / or score to submit, is it mandatory to "win" the special stage by getting the chaos emerald at the end or can we just fail at getting it and still submit the stat ? I didn't find this in the rules neither.

You probably want to add a rule in Sonic Mania to prevent the use of cheat codes as well (such as Sonic having peel out + insta shield + drop dash abilities all together)

[Zurggriff]

Encore Mode apparently does not have a time limit or an option to enable it. Mania Mode previously had the time limit mandatory and the site has generally required time limits enabled when it is an option so it remains required for now.

For the Special Stages, I do not see anything in the rules that requires the emerald to be collected. This could be used to take slower routes with more spheres to improve the score. I think it does not make much sense to allow scores that do not collect the emerald as the stage is not complete at that point, requiring another entry for the chaos emerald. Not sure how well public opinion would hold up record scores without the emerald. Any thoughts?

[SonicandInuyasha]

First off thank you for updating the Mania charts, I did check out the time limit in encore mode and wow after a hour the time goes back to zero, that is very weird. Could the Mania team pull a Forces with the time limit with encore mode.

[Vicklaw]

I can confirm the post from above about the time limit in encore mode. I forced the game to speed up by holding backspace with the DevMenu activated. The timer goes from 59"59'99 to 0"00'0. When doing this the "TIME" display flashes in red but there's no time over as I waited another 60 minutes and it looped to 0 again. What should be the rule about the time limit in encore mode ?


The Oil Ocean zone cutscene death glitch is also possible on several other levels. This video shows it for chemical plant zone 1 (1:26), Press Garden zone 1 (9:54), Oil Ocean zone 1 (18:18). It also shows a way to corrupt Oil ocean zone 1 just after.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_TTbqjyyTo
I suggest applying the rule to all levels instead : "You can't die during a stage transition in such a way the next level will load with a frozen timer."

About the special stages, I think getting the emerald or not depends on the stat to submit. Stats like the time in both Sonic 4 games should require the emerald to be obtained to save your stat (else you just ram into goal blocks, red spheres, holes or such to loose on purpose as fast as possible). Sonic CD does that well, you need to destroy all the UFOs to get your time.
However stats like rings on Sonic 1 (genesis and GBA versions) and 4 shouldn't require the emerald since you can get the rings and they remain whatever you win or loose the stage.
About Sonic Mania I would say doing it the best way to get the highest score, getting the emerald or not as the score remains at the end. I think the emerald is better on some stages to save more rings for more points but you can also just fall in a hole (in other stages) after getting the last possible "BONUS!".
I don't know much about other Sonic games, some even lack a special stage chart (like S1GG).

Maybe we can get more opinions from other people. I'm sceptic about mania.

[Zurggriff]

Rules have been updated to prohibit dying during any level transition.

It appears that the Time Bonus is 0 after the timer rolls over so it may not be necessary to limit score attacks to under 60 minutes. For timed stats, players could add 60 minutes to the time for each instance that it rolls over or limit them to under 60 minutes. Setting a limit would be the easier option to implement and it is unlikely that more time would be needed for someone to time attack any level.

Falling off a special stage keeps the rings for the Ring Bonus. It is safe to say that the strategy to max the score would involve falling off after the last possible BONUS in almost every stage, without requiring the emerald. The Encore stages have a notable lack of walls.

I suspect the reason S1GG does not have charts for special stages is that the GG and SMS releases have different special stages and the community chose not to support charts for both types. GG and SMS charts really should not have been combined in the first place. Sonic 3D Blast is the same way. It is unfortunate as charts could have promoted competition for those special stages.

[Vicklaw]

So, can I spend more then 10 minutes for Ring Attacks in Encore Mode ? I need more time to properly max some levels.

[Zurggriff]

There is no limit for Ring Attacks in Encore Mode. The same applies to Score Attacks as long as later 60 minute loops do not restore the Time Bonus. Reason being there is nothing in game limiting runs to 10 minutes.

[Vicklaw]

Nice, so I will do more Ring Attacks for Encore mode then.